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[personal profile] solitary_summer
Tired & a bit depressed, possibly due to PMS, I'm not sure.


Downloaded & watched yesterday's DW episode, which I could have seen perfectly legally on tv, if between Torchwood and aunt I hadn't forgotten to program the recorder. I've no idea how they do it, mixing utterly cacktastic plots with just the right emotional punches (the scenes with Donna and her grandfather almost made me sniff a bit), but it works for me. Although OTOH I'm also getting a little tired of all those women practically begging for their lives to be given some meaning by the Doctor. I know it's not about male or female, strictly speaking, it's about a brush with the extaordinary and miraculous, and there's Jack, who waited 100 years, but the Doctor is still a man, and most of the companions are still women. That it isn't a romantic kind of love -- or even if it isn't, because I'm not so sure about that with Donna, no matter what she said -- doesn't really make it any better. If anything, that's what made Martha's (and possibly Jack's) self-preservation instincts kick in and walk out.


I'm still reluctant to rewatch the TW finale and put myself through that emotional wrangler again, but speaking of which... I tend to take the Captain's Blog with a grain of salt, because while it does give some factual information, on an emotional level it always seems rather less deep or complicated than the show itself, but can we say 'aww'?! :)


[ETA: Although, 'aww' or no, what people said about JKR and the Dumbledore outing goes more then doubly here. If they wanted a scene with Jack turning to Ianto for comfort, they should have put it on the show itself, maybe instead of one of the kinky sex innuendos, for which there seemed to have been enough time. And other than JKR they really don't have much of a good excuse for not having done that.]

[ETfurtherA: Because, seriously. We saw Gwen doing exactly that with Rhys, and then we saw Jack, standing in the doorway, watching Gwen take down the files of the missing persons, and for me that scene is not so much about a shared pain, but the fact that this stands between them so that they can't even talk about it or comfort each other, and how this saddens Jack. It's not as if I go looking for Jack/Gwen subtext, but it's hard not to see it there.]

Date: 2008-04-06 12:05 pm (UTC)
ext_7009: (Jack/Ianto - so wrong)
From: [identity profile] alex-beecroft.livejournal.com
I don't know if you watched classic Who? That very much did it differently and better with the companions (and with the Doctor, come to that.) The Doctor was less of a demi-god figure, and more of a merely clever + technologically advanced alien who mucked in to save the universe occasionally because it wast he right thing to do. Equally the companions went along with him for a while until they found something they wanted to do more. There just wasn't the level of (IMO unhealthy) emotional investment in the relationship in those days. They were fellow travellers, brothers in arms etc, and the Doctor balanced his heroic world saving with being irritating and incapable in some ways, so that no one was ever tempted to worship him.

There seems to be an unhealthy streak of looking for a messiah in RTD's writing, and it's one of the reasons why I'm not watching new Who any more. I really *really* hope something intervenes before it gets to that stage with Torchwood.

*g* The Captain's Blog is obviously written by a big J/I shipper - it's had more J/I in it from the beginning than the series has (and absolutely zero J/G, unlike the series). But still, awww :)

I agree about the lack of J/I normal hurt/comfort response. I personally try to look at it as a characterization thing, though I may just be fooling myself. But with Tosh's death scene, Jack and Gwen have to get close to her; touching her in order to comfort her and themselves. Ianto stays in the corner. The doors open when Jack returns and Gwen runs out + hugs him - Ianto doesn't. When they're taking down the records, Jack and Gwen hug for comfort, and *Jack* reaches out to touch Ianto, not the other way round.

So I see it as Ianto just being the kind of person who doesn't really like to be touched. Given the opportunity he would go and grieve in private - alone - and only come back when he could be composed again. I think the Captain's Blog has it right - Jack might hug Ianto for comfort, but Ianto would not be very comfortable with that. He does touching for sex and violence or where it's necessary, but not for reassurance, not by choice.
Edited Date: 2008-04-06 12:16 pm (UTC)

Date: 2008-04-06 12:40 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] solitary-summer.livejournal.com
I haven't seen any of the old series, but I've been kind of wanting to... Where would you recommend starting? In the beginning? Any particular Doctor?

The religious elements... I've been thinking about that, actually, and started to rewatch DW with an eye out for it, but the new TW season derailed me a bit. Before S3 I always saw the Doctor a bit like a minor pagan god, maybe - not all-powerful, but something different, distant, non human, with all that playful enjoyment of life and creation, and the human companions he loved and invariably lost. Then Family of Blood changed a lot, because if he ran and hid himself because of his own powers and what he might do, it implies that he's a lot more powerful than he ever let on. And then of course the messianic streak came out in full force in the S3 finale in ways that partly worked but partly made me a bit uncomfortable. I'm kind of wondering where they're going to take it this season...


What bugs me so much about the Captain's Blog entry is that I've seen this in their relationship ever since TKKS, and I really was hoping to see it on screen too this season, because it would at least have given us a hint of what Jack is looking for in this relationship.

Date: 2008-04-06 06:02 pm (UTC)
ext_7009: (Maecenas)
From: [identity profile] alex-beecroft.livejournal.com
Hm, I hid behind the sofa for several of the Jon Pertwee (Three) episodes, and thought he was good. Tom Baker (Four) was the one I watched most of and is therefore my biggest benchmark, but I also liked Peter Davidson (Five) a lot. They did something very interesting with Five - he seemed to spend a long time recovering from regeneration sickness and was much more dependent on his companions than Four. Nine was quite similar to Tom Baker's take on things, I thought; amused, eccentric but capable of being solitary and sombre too. He also stayed on just the right side of the friendship/romance divide with his companions. Four had also had an almost-but-not-quite romantic/best friend relationship with Romana, but then she was a Time Lord too.

I also like what I've seen of One and Two, but don't know anything about the later ones. I'd still say that Tom Baker was the absolutely iconic version though if you have to choose one.

But from his earlier incarnations I'd say he was initially meant to be an intelligent, technologically advanced alien who was nothing particularly special when considered against the rest of his species (who were also around for a lot of the time) and was doing his bit for cosmic law and order in a lovably eccentric way.

You liked him, you expected him to save the day, you thought that he was a tosser at times, but there was never anything *worshipful* about the way the character was handled. In fact those are the two big differences between new and Old Who - companions used to be just along for the ride, and the Doctor never used to be any kind of god, not even demi :)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doctor_%28Doctor_Who%29

(Eight - though he was the prettiest - never was a real Doctor, IMO).

Date: 2008-04-06 07:39 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] solitary-summer.livejournal.com
Oh, thanks a lot! That was really helpful!

Date: 2008-04-06 01:05 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] solitary-summer.livejournal.com
(Wrote the earlier reply before your edit.)

I personally try to look at it as a characterization thing, though I may just be fooling myself.

I think you may be right, which is why I really hope that we'll be getting a third season, because now they've actually established they're in some sort of relationship, they could finally start to explore that a bit, as well as Ianto's character. It's so weird, because when supposedly everyone is bisexual and fine with it anyway, you either have to assume it's due to characterisation, or, like people did throughout the season, some inherent homophobia, which on the whole I tend not to believe. If you can have naked sex, a hug surely can't be a problem? In a way I could see Ianto still being unsure about his relationship with Jack, where he stands and what Jack wants from him (except sex), and reluctant to risk any kind or rejection, but rather waiting for Jack to come forward, or at least that's how it looked like in the first few episodes, and I'm not sure just how much that has changed. Which of course would make the dance in SB even more of a statement. But maybe it's really just a personal thing...

The doors open when Jack returns and Gwen runs out + hugs him - Ianto doesn't.

He sort of half reaches out, and Jack pulls him close the rest of the way, but considering the stress he's been under, and how he stormed into the Hub ready to shoot John (and I'm pretty sure unlike Gwen he wouldn't have stopped to ask for a reason not to) even that is a pretty understated reaction...





Date: 2008-04-06 09:00 pm (UTC)
ext_7009: (Jack/Ianto)
From: [identity profile] alex-beecroft.livejournal.com
If you can have naked sex, a hug surely can't be a problem?

Hm, but what if Ianto is just not a huggy type person? It may just be a case of Jack reigning in his usual touchy-feeliness because it's not what Ianto wants.

In KKBB we see Jack trying to ask Ianto out on a date. Ianto says yes, but he makes sure they're standing on opposite sides of the room first. Jack's chasing Ianto here, not the other way around.

Sleepers - Ianto is visibly (almost annoyingly) happy - he's wearing a flamboyant red shirt and cracking bad-taste jokes. They've obviously been on the date, and he's feeling confident and pleased with himself.

S2.03 - this is the one where Jack asks Ianto if he would miss him if he left again, and Ianto says yes. Ianto asks Jack whether he wants to leave again and Jack says no. Ianto kisses Jack.

Meat - I don't remember much in this one except for the fact that Ianto is now an effective team member and Jack treats him as such. From a masculine POV, I see that as trust on Jack's side, and a gesture of confidence which Ianto is likely to appreciate. If Jack appeared worried about him, Ianto would surely be insulted.

Adam - on finding he's a murderer, Ianto goes straight to Jack for help (a big deal really, considering the other things he's kept secret in the past). Jack refuses to believe it of Ianto (ditto). It's their trust in each other which leads to Adam being found out.

Reset - the relationship reaches a stage where Jack tells his best friend that they're together.

I don't remember noticing anything in the two Owen episodes, because they were mainly about Owen, so I wasn't paying a lot of attention.

Something Borrowed - Jack and Ianto pick out wedding dresses for Gwen, Ianto tells Jack about his father; they are busily flirting when someone comes in, at which point Ianto pretends he's just been talking about work. But the end of the episode Ianto stakes his claim on Jack.

From out of the Rain - This was the one that made me think that the lack of non-sexual touching so far had been deliberate. But we've got Jack and Ianto shoulder to shoulder in the cinema, talking in a way that indicates they understand each other surprisingly well. Ianto's emotional attachment to old films is a bit bizarre, but Jack gets it. Ianto has previously tried to include the rest of the team in this love of his (first time we ever see him volunteer anything about himself to them), but they fail the test. Jack passes.

Then we get them sitting together in the office, still not touching, but Ianto with his jacket off, relaxed and smiling. They're both smiling, in fact, content and happy. To me, that's a great snapshot of a relationship which is doing them both good.

Adrift - Jack makes a decision Gwen doesn't like. Ianto says 'I'll talk to him' and goes off to do so. The rest of the team accept that Ianto is a special relationship with Jack which allows him to ask things that the others cannot ask. Ianto is presuming on the fact that as far as he and everyone else is concerned, he has a partner's rights with Jack.

Ianto's 'he cheats' comment outside the greenhouse is accompanied by the most open, happiest expression he's displayed in both seasons. The boy is floating :)

Fragments - we find out that the J/I has been going on since the beginning, and must therefore have survived both Jack and Ianto abandoning each other for an earlier love.

Exit Wounds - Ianto has to be restrained from killing someone he thinks has hurt Jack. At the end, he's grieving, he's standing in a closed off, defensive posture, as much as saying 'please do not touch me'. Jack reaches out to Ianto, and Ianto lets him.

There is a big difference between being touched in normal life and being touched during sex, and people can like one but not the other. If we assume that Ianto is simply uncomfortable with physical contact - something that would go well with his formality and secrecy - then I think it all works :)

Date: 2008-04-06 09:28 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] solitary-summer.livejournal.com
Hm, but what if Ianto is just not a huggy type person?

I'm so sorry for not having been clearer, I meant a problem from the writer's/producer's perspective, since quite a few people were complaining that TPTB had gone homophobic, were turning TW straight, etc., with all the Jack/Gwen and comparative lack of Jack/Ianto mid-season. Which I don't really believe, so I totally agree with you, it really seems to be a character thing.

And I totally agree with your write-up, there has been a lot of relationship building this season, probably as much as could have been expected with such a shaky start. I guess the problem is that I've been a bit on the edge about the Jack/Gwen thing since the first episode, because it's so very much the conventional, the expected thing, especially when Jack so obviously does love Gwen, while the Jack/Ianto arc is something really new for that kind of tv show...

Date: 2008-04-06 09:43 pm (UTC)
ext_7009: (Jack/Ianto - so wrong)
From: [identity profile] alex-beecroft.livejournal.com
The Jack/Gwen is very obvious. I was really quite annoyed with her over it in the finale, since she acts as though Jack is hers and that her relationship with Jack is the most important one. And really she ought not to be doing that now that she's a married woman! On the other hand, for all the hugging and wistful looks, their relationship has gone down hill both personally and professionally this series. Gwen is no longer the one Jack tells personal things to. Jack hands Gwen over to Rhys despite her making it clear that he'd only have to say the word if he wanted her. And professionally Jack refuses Gwen permission to do anything in Adrift and uses his relationship with Ianto to literally shut the (hot house) door in her face.

But even so, I know what you mean, because Jack/Gwen is so very much the way everyone expects things to go, and Jack/Ianto is not happening in an easily recognizable form. Every time there's a step forward there seems to be a step back immediately afterwards :)

Date: 2008-04-09 07:41 am (UTC)
tencrush: (Default)
From: [personal profile] tencrush
[ETA: Although, 'aww' or no, what people said about JKR and the Dumbledore outing goes more then doubly here. If they wanted a scene with Jack turning to Ianto for comfort, they should have put it on the show itself, maybe instead of one of the kinky sex innuendos, for which there seemed to have been enough time. And other than JKR they really don't have much of a good excuse for not having done that.]

Yes, yes, yes, I agree completely. I don't think there's any excuse, and lord knows we could have done with one less kink innuendo. I think it makes the relationship appear somehow lesser than Gwen/Rhys (and that's not helped by the constant implications that a Gwen/Rhys type thing is what Jack is PINING for.) If he HAS that level of relationship with Ianto, they're doing a damned bad job of showing us, and writing it in in the American blog doesn't really make up for that. I've said this loads of times already in my rambling meta, but still.

I friended you, by the way (I also quoted you in my LJ and pointed a few people your way), I MEANT, at the time, to comment on your post about Jack and Fragments, because I thought you brought up some really interesting stuff about the enslavement aspect and the relationship he has with TW as an organisation. But then life got in the way and I didn't, and now I've forgotten what I was going to say. It was well worth a read, though, thanks.

Date: 2008-04-09 06:10 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] solitary-summer.livejournal.com
You're welcome! And never mind! :)


It's not so much that Jack and Ianto don't have a hearts & flowers conventional romance relationship that bothers me; considering how they started out it's rather understandable. It's how the Jack/Gwen thing was handled by comparison that had me on the edge since the first episode, because for me there never was a scene that convinced me -- on a gut level, rather than after rewatching & analysing & rationalising -- that Jack wouldn't dump Ianto for Gwen if she suddenly became available. It occurred to me that this might be due to all the heteronormative tv show cliches I've absorbed over a couple of decades more than TW itself, but on the whole I rather doubt it...
Edited Date: 2008-04-09 06:11 pm (UTC)

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