(no subject)
Jan. 13th, 2010 12:54 pm![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
solitary_summerI'm not all that comfortable posting this, because while I generally follow the big fandom ---!fail debates, most of the time I'm too scared to offend someone or make a fool of myself to speak up, but between ![[livejournal.com profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/external/lj-userinfo.gif)
aviv_b's (now locked) RTD-finds-out-about-homophobia story, and the recent debate about (straight) women writing m/m fiction I have this sort of theory why TW fandom blew up so spectacularly after CoE, and it has a lot to do with this slightly uneasy alliance between gay people and the straight part of slash fandom, since both want the same thing, more gay storylines, and there's strength in numbers, and numbers count when it comes to TV. On the other hand that common interest doesn't mean that gay people (fans as well as those involved in the creation, especially in the age of the internet and fandom becoming increasingly mainstream and public) aren't aware of the more problematic aspects of slash fandom (fetishisation/appropriation), or that straight fandom doesn't tend to forget that for gay people it's also very much a matter of identification and representation, and not just, and that's putting it as politely and generally as possible, of fanish squee. (Cf. the 'But It's not about gay men, it's about female sexuality' argument.)
And for the straight side it all worked rather well ('Yay! Canon slash!'), and I'd hazard a guess that even after Ianto's death the greater part of TW fandom would probably have got over it after a while, if RTD hadn't spoken up about what he thought was problematic about—straight, beecause 'people picking up gay rights as an issue' clearly doesn't refer to gay fans—fandom, and suddenly it wasn't one happy family any longer.
So, yes, the 'hysterical women' comment was sexist and misogynist, everyone can agree on that, but after six months fandom can maybe start to look beyond that, and realise this was also coming from somewhere, namely a gay writer thinking he wasn't just dealing with straight women fetishising homosexuality and making judgements about what gay relationships were supposed to be like, but straight women now explaining homophobia to him. Now clearly the situation was more complex than that, clearly there were gay people as well as straight people who disliked CoE for a wide variety of reasons, but I think this was the main impression that came across, and I doubt anyone involved in TW fandom can honestly say that it was wholly unfounded in reality.
And considering that he stated this very explicitly more than once (here and here and probably elsewhere, too, but I wasn't following media that religiously and only picked up what was generally linked in fandom) I find it a bit worrying how this got swept aside almost unanimously by the straight part of fandom. Admittedly emotions were running high all round, and no one was thinking very clearly at the time, but after half a year maybe it's time to acknowledge that among other things there was also a lot of hurt privilege and entitlement in the post-CoE fallout. Because when straight people are gleefully writing RPF subjecting RTD to homophobia they honestly believe he doesn't know about, and are convinced they're doing it in the name of gay rights and karma I think this is a problem that isn't just limited to one writer, but symptomatic of the wider state of TW fandom.
*breathes* Okay. Now everyone tell me how hard I've failed.
[Obligatory disclaimer: I don't consider myself straight, but I'm also too not-much-of-anything-sexual to feel justified claiming any kind of queer label.
Obligatory disclaimer the second, for those who aren't on my friendslist and don't know me. Yes, I cried. Yes, I cared. Click the tag.]
ETA: I'll be at my sister's for the afternoon, so if I'm not replying to comments it's not that I'm ignoring anyone.
ETA2: Addendum, sort of.
More ETA, since my brain is slow and some things only untangled themselves in my head replying to the comments. If I wrote that post now, I'd phrase it a bit differently, because even while I thought I was being clear, different issues did in fact get jumbled together. The 'hysterical women' comment— and while we're at it, I was getting curious and looked for the exact source, and now I'm left wondering, was this ever said more publicly than (possibly off the record?) to the AfterElton writer who put it into his editor's note without giving the context or even a full quote? In any case, that comment is one thing, and I'm not going to tell anyone they can't be offended by its sexism, even if personally I can't bring myself to be very outraged, given the context, situation and the fact that we're all human and fuck up occasionally.
OTOH, the two interviews I've linked where he is clearly pissed off about straight people lecturing a gay man about gay rights and homophobia—that's a separate issue and a legitimate concern about what was happening in TW fandom, and something I don't think straight fans should immediately react to with outrage and discard as nothing but hurt vanity. It's an issue that deserves consideration, whether or not someone is willing to forgive killing Ianto or the 'nine hysterical women'.
The one is about male privilege and prejudice, the other very much about straight privilege, as is using the sexism as an excuse to ignore the anger, lumping it all together; and they don't cancel each other out. This is essentially what I should have made clearer from the start. And I'll really shut up now; but on some level I keep naively hoping that attempting to untangle this whole mess might also eventually help a little bit towards making TW fandom a less toxic place again. I know, I know. *sigh*
aviv_b's (now locked) RTD-finds-out-about-homophobia story, and the recent debate about (straight) women writing m/m fiction I have this sort of theory why TW fandom blew up so spectacularly after CoE, and it has a lot to do with this slightly uneasy alliance between gay people and the straight part of slash fandom, since both want the same thing, more gay storylines, and there's strength in numbers, and numbers count when it comes to TV. On the other hand that common interest doesn't mean that gay people (fans as well as those involved in the creation, especially in the age of the internet and fandom becoming increasingly mainstream and public) aren't aware of the more problematic aspects of slash fandom (fetishisation/appropriation), or that straight fandom doesn't tend to forget that for gay people it's also very much a matter of identification and representation, and not just, and that's putting it as politely and generally as possible, of fanish squee. (Cf. the 'But It's not about gay men, it's about female sexuality' argument.)And for the straight side it all worked rather well ('Yay! Canon slash!'), and I'd hazard a guess that even after Ianto's death the greater part of TW fandom would probably have got over it after a while, if RTD hadn't spoken up about what he thought was problematic about—straight, beecause 'people picking up gay rights as an issue' clearly doesn't refer to gay fans—fandom, and suddenly it wasn't one happy family any longer.
So, yes, the 'hysterical women' comment was sexist and misogynist, everyone can agree on that, but after six months fandom can maybe start to look beyond that, and realise this was also coming from somewhere, namely a gay writer thinking he wasn't just dealing with straight women fetishising homosexuality and making judgements about what gay relationships were supposed to be like, but straight women now explaining homophobia to him. Now clearly the situation was more complex than that, clearly there were gay people as well as straight people who disliked CoE for a wide variety of reasons, but I think this was the main impression that came across, and I doubt anyone involved in TW fandom can honestly say that it was wholly unfounded in reality.
And considering that he stated this very explicitly more than once (here and here and probably elsewhere, too, but I wasn't following media that religiously and only picked up what was generally linked in fandom) I find it a bit worrying how this got swept aside almost unanimously by the straight part of fandom. Admittedly emotions were running high all round, and no one was thinking very clearly at the time, but after half a year maybe it's time to acknowledge that among other things there was also a lot of hurt privilege and entitlement in the post-CoE fallout. Because when straight people are gleefully writing RPF subjecting RTD to homophobia they honestly believe he doesn't know about, and are convinced they're doing it in the name of gay rights and karma I think this is a problem that isn't just limited to one writer, but symptomatic of the wider state of TW fandom.
*breathes* Okay. Now everyone tell me how hard I've failed.
[Obligatory disclaimer: I don't consider myself straight, but I'm also too not-much-of-anything-sexual to feel justified claiming any kind of queer label.
Obligatory disclaimer the second, for those who aren't on my friendslist and don't know me. Yes, I cried. Yes, I cared. Click the tag.]
ETA2: Addendum, sort of.
More ETA, since my brain is slow and some things only untangled themselves in my head replying to the comments. If I wrote that post now, I'd phrase it a bit differently, because even while I thought I was being clear, different issues did in fact get jumbled together. The 'hysterical women' comment— and while we're at it, I was getting curious and looked for the exact source, and now I'm left wondering, was this ever said more publicly than (possibly off the record?) to the AfterElton writer who put it into his editor's note without giving the context or even a full quote? In any case, that comment is one thing, and I'm not going to tell anyone they can't be offended by its sexism, even if personally I can't bring myself to be very outraged, given the context, situation and the fact that we're all human and fuck up occasionally.
OTOH, the two interviews I've linked where he is clearly pissed off about straight people lecturing a gay man about gay rights and homophobia—that's a separate issue and a legitimate concern about what was happening in TW fandom, and something I don't think straight fans should immediately react to with outrage and discard as nothing but hurt vanity. It's an issue that deserves consideration, whether or not someone is willing to forgive killing Ianto or the 'nine hysterical women'.
The one is about male privilege and prejudice, the other very much about straight privilege, as is using the sexism as an excuse to ignore the anger, lumping it all together; and they don't cancel each other out. This is essentially what I should have made clearer from the start. And I'll really shut up now; but on some level I keep naively hoping that attempting to untangle this whole mess might also eventually help a little bit towards making TW fandom a less toxic place again. I know, I know. *sigh*
no subject
Date: 2010-01-13 10:23 pm (UTC)And I don't believe Ianto died because he was gay. On the contrary, he died because he was stupid. He and Jack were dumb enough not to use the resources at hand - Lois's knowledge, Torchwood's knowledge, JACK'S DIRECT EXPERIENCE - to better prepare themselves to confront the 456. And having BBC auto-responder e-mails tell me about the tragedy and the necessity of his death to atone for JACK'S sins is insulting. It was bad writing, lazy writing, out of character writing. Pick one. They shoehorned Torchwood into a pre-existing idea that RTD had for an entirely different show.
They also proved, beyond a doubt, that the opening credits of S1 and S2 were a lie (no wonder they skipped them for S3!). Torchwood was not ready. Torchwood had no backup plans, no disaster recovery solution, and for an organization whose job it was to save the world almost every day, you'd think they'd have had something better than "steal credit cards and computers and break into an old warehouse" as their Plan B. The Torchwood method, in RTD's vision, is to throw bodies at the Rift and hope one sticks. And I'm no longer interested in watching a show with that philosophy.
Homophobia, no matter the amount, really doesn't play into it. And it's frustrating that one of the biggest voices to revive my favorite character is clinging so hard to that cause.
Thanks for listening :)
no subject
Date: 2010-01-13 11:10 pm (UTC)That other than in 1965 homophobia is not acceptable any longer in 2009, I would say. Also showing Ianto more comfortable with his sexual identity than in the scene with his sister.
Can't speak for RTD, obviously, but I think it might have gone something like this—Clem smelling Gwen's pregnancy was a fixed plot-point, and then they decided to reuse the idea with Ianto, mostly for the "Oi, it's not 1965 anymore," line, and there's no other way Clem would have known. I don't think it goes a lot deeper than that. And I don't think Gwen and Rhys are tacitly approving anything, either; they're maybe a bit embarrassed and don't know what to say, considering Clem's mental state.
To be perfectly honest, I don't want to go over the discussion about how stupid it was again. If you're really interested, I've written something about the narrative structure of CoE here (http://solitary-summer.livejournal.com/438214.html). Having been on the run (and in Jack's case, blown up and buried in concrete), they had no resources, no plan, no knowledge about the situation except what the got from Lois's lenses, and time was running out fast. Moreover, they'd been watching the footage with all those people standing around the glass cage without any protection whatsoever. Even Jack never saw the 456 before, and all they'd done in 1965 was offer and deliver a cure for a virus that had already mutated naturally. Maybe it simply didn't occur to them. Shit happens and hindsight is 20/20
And team Torchwood has always been a bit of a mess and at least in S1 half of the time was creating the problems they then had to solve, which actually people have been pointing out long before CoE...
no subject
Date: 2010-01-15 02:40 am (UTC)They had more than Lois' lenses by Day 4, they had Lois. They had plans she'd delivered and descriptions of the place and a very good read on how these aliens operated from Ianto's transcriptions. Jack's whole approach was naive, and for someone with his experience, I would've expected more.
I loved that TW was a bit of a mess, I agree completely. But being a bit of a mess and managing to pull it off is like underdog heroes, scrappy and fun. Getting people killed so frequently, not so much.
I guess I take particular offense because a major part of my (now previous) job was to ensure all systems had a disaster recovery plan in place, and our business had little to do with daily risk and disaster. It is all moot, though, innit? It's over and done with. The writers did what the writers did, and I disagreed with so much of it despite great editing, a rollercoaster pace, beautiful camera angles (at times), and some fabulous things done with truly lovely secondary characters. It just wasn't the show I'd fallen in love with, and I still get angry about it.
Whoops, I belabored it after all, didn't I? Sorry. You ARE right, just doesn't mean I like it :)