(no subject)
Dec. 31st, 2010 07:48 pm![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
solitary_summerMy sister originally invited me to celebrate New Year with them, but since we're all sick to various degrees we decided to call it off, which is why I'm sitting at home, sipping herbal tea, blowing my nose every two minutes, and randomly surfing the internet on New Year's Eve. All of which isn't exactly newsworthy, I know, I know. However, in the midst of all this aimless surfing around I stumbled across this:
![[livejournal.com profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/external/lj-userinfo.gif)
green_maia writes here:
I'd have commented there, but she disabled comments on this entry; I hope I'm not breaking lj-etiquette quoting her here, but I really love this thought, because I've been trying to figure out why S5 left me feeling so meh, but without much success so far.
I don't agree with her post only insofar as for me the point of Waters of Mars is that Adelaide kills herself to stop someone who really has the power to fundamentally subvert the laws of the universe and change the fate of humanity; if Ten merely had delusions of grandeur, then her death would be rather meaningless. For me the parallel that is too obvious to ignore is The Second Coming: Stephen Baxter isn't a fraud, he really is the son of God; it's precisely because of that that Judith convinces him to kill himself in order to give humanity responsibility and freedom.
So IMO Ten is only morally wrong in Waters of Mars, not factually wrong. I'm not a hundred percent sure this is entirely consistent with the way RTD wrote the Doctor before, because right until the end of S4 the Doctor struggling with and against a universe that has Daleks and death and loss and generally doesn't work according to his wishes is such a big, recurring theme. The idea that he actually could change that, not because of something like the solution of the Skasis Paradigm in School Reunion, but simply because he is a Time Lord, only creeps in at the end of S3 when the Master says he has the right to change history, and the Doctor concedes that.
But regardless, for me the premise of Waters of Mars is that what he claims is true, that there really is nothing he can't do any longer, just as the Time Lords would really have abolished time if he hadn't stopped them. Ten's arc at this point effectively becomes something of a theological problem. RTD built up Ten as a sometimes genuinely benevolent and helpful, sometimes wilful and capricious sort-of God not to replace God, but to deconstruct the concept, to show that even being saved is too high a price to allow someone to have power over life and death.
The story of The End of Time is that Ten acknowledges this and voluntarily gives up this power again for the benefit of the universe, and for his own salvation.
In the endgreen_maia is absolutely right, the underlying idea of RTD's DW is that even if the Doctor can be bigger than the universe, the universe absolutely should be bigger than the Doctor. And while I'm not sure I'd describe Eleven as a God in his tiny universe (I've watched S5 so cursory that I'm reluctant to make any definitive statement about it), she's also right that in S5 the universe did feel a lot safer and more controllable. Memories can be rewritten and time can be changed to achieve a happy ending, whereas in the RTD era the fact that time could be changed wasn't a guarantee for safety—rather the opposite: 'Nothing is safe' (The Unquiet Dead).
And I miss that. I miss the sense of wonder at something big and mysterious and essentially uncontrollable that for me was still absolutely there in the 'Everybody Lives' at the end of The Doctor Dances, but wasn't there any longer when the ghost of River Song was resurrected on a computer HD and we were being told that this was a blessing. Death, of course, is part of the uncontrollable. Death is still the ultimate uncontrollable. In The Doctor Dances Nine says, 'Everybody lives, Rose. Just this once. Everybody lives!' and the 'just this once' made all the difference. That's why, even though I only wanted to write about the deaths I also ended up rambling so much about life and being human, because it's part and parcel of the same thing. It's in DW, and it's also in TW, although there the balance between the wonderful and the terrible is even finer and more precarious.
And there's something else that I think is very, very true and that hopegreen_maia won't mind me quoting:
green_maia writes here:I think I've figured out why I dislike Steven Moffat's writing.
In RTD-verse, the universe is bigger than the Doctor.
In Moffat-verse, the Doctor is bigger than the universe.
I'd have commented there, but she disabled comments on this entry; I hope I'm not breaking lj-etiquette quoting her here, but I really love this thought, because I've been trying to figure out why S5 left me feeling so meh, but without much success so far.
I don't agree with her post only insofar as for me the point of Waters of Mars is that Adelaide kills herself to stop someone who really has the power to fundamentally subvert the laws of the universe and change the fate of humanity; if Ten merely had delusions of grandeur, then her death would be rather meaningless. For me the parallel that is too obvious to ignore is The Second Coming: Stephen Baxter isn't a fraud, he really is the son of God; it's precisely because of that that Judith convinces him to kill himself in order to give humanity responsibility and freedom.
So IMO Ten is only morally wrong in Waters of Mars, not factually wrong. I'm not a hundred percent sure this is entirely consistent with the way RTD wrote the Doctor before, because right until the end of S4 the Doctor struggling with and against a universe that has Daleks and death and loss and generally doesn't work according to his wishes is such a big, recurring theme. The idea that he actually could change that, not because of something like the solution of the Skasis Paradigm in School Reunion, but simply because he is a Time Lord, only creeps in at the end of S3 when the Master says he has the right to change history, and the Doctor concedes that.
But regardless, for me the premise of Waters of Mars is that what he claims is true, that there really is nothing he can't do any longer, just as the Time Lords would really have abolished time if he hadn't stopped them. Ten's arc at this point effectively becomes something of a theological problem. RTD built up Ten as a sometimes genuinely benevolent and helpful, sometimes wilful and capricious sort-of God not to replace God, but to deconstruct the concept, to show that even being saved is too high a price to allow someone to have power over life and death.
The story of The End of Time is that Ten acknowledges this and voluntarily gives up this power again for the benefit of the universe, and for his own salvation.
In the end
green_maia is absolutely right, the underlying idea of RTD's DW is that even if the Doctor can be bigger than the universe, the universe absolutely should be bigger than the Doctor. And while I'm not sure I'd describe Eleven as a God in his tiny universe (I've watched S5 so cursory that I'm reluctant to make any definitive statement about it), she's also right that in S5 the universe did feel a lot safer and more controllable. Memories can be rewritten and time can be changed to achieve a happy ending, whereas in the RTD era the fact that time could be changed wasn't a guarantee for safety—rather the opposite: 'Nothing is safe' (The Unquiet Dead).And I miss that. I miss the sense of wonder at something big and mysterious and essentially uncontrollable that for me was still absolutely there in the 'Everybody Lives' at the end of The Doctor Dances, but wasn't there any longer when the ghost of River Song was resurrected on a computer HD and we were being told that this was a blessing. Death, of course, is part of the uncontrollable. Death is still the ultimate uncontrollable. In The Doctor Dances Nine says, 'Everybody lives, Rose. Just this once. Everybody lives!' and the 'just this once' made all the difference. That's why, even though I only wanted to write about the deaths I also ended up rambling so much about life and being human, because it's part and parcel of the same thing. It's in DW, and it's also in TW, although there the balance between the wonderful and the terrible is even finer and more precarious.
And there's something else that I think is very, very true and that hope
green_maia won't mind me quoting:Sometimes it seems like people don't choose their stories, stories choose their people. When a story takes over your imagination, it doesn't exactly give you a feeling of agency. The story swoops down and grasps you in its talons and flies off with you and all your frantic struggling is for naught. Or, the story takes off with someone else and you watch as they sail away, scratching your head and wondering what, exactly, they see in it.
Re: Part 2
Date: 2011-01-01 12:47 pm (UTC)And then I read your arguments, and I keep thinking, she's also right, why am I not seeing it like that? Why can't I?
Here's another thing - maybe the sense of control ('a whimsical child-god playing with his toys in a tiny, claustrophobic world where there's nothing he cannot do') doesn't come from Eleven, but from Moffat? Maybe it's a side effect of those clever timey wimey stories where at least some of us are maybe too aware that he's arranging the characters in a certain pattern? (OTOH it's not as if RTD didn't do the same, only in different ways...) Maybe it has something to do with Eleven's slightly paternalistic professor attitude?
And however much Rose or Martha might admire the Ten, or Donna want to go travelling with him, we see him pitched against a universe that doesn't give him what he wants, whether it's the big things, or the small ones, all the time, right from the beginning of Nine's story.
the bad things don't necessarily spoil the good things and make them unimportant.
I didn't get that from RTD's DW; just maybe that the balance is harder to achieve.
Re: Part 2
Date: 2011-01-01 01:24 pm (UTC)Well if you can't see something, you can't see it. *I* can't for the life of me see Eleven as 'a whimsical child-god playing with his toys in a tiny, claustrophobic world where there's nothing he cannot do' - it's like saying that Ten is too shy and retiring. ;)
But I've thought of a few things, which are only really related tangentially, but hey, I'm here to ramble...
1. We only have one season so far, and if there's one thing we can be sure of, it's that Moffat plays a long game. Just look at River. Her first appearance made a LOT of people dislike her (Who did she think she was, eh?), but now we know her better we go 'Oh. It all makes more sense now.' (Really, re-watching those episodes I want to shake Ten and shout at him that 'IT'S RIVER SONG, YOU IDIOT! SHE IS AWESOMENESS SQUARED! STOP BEHAVING LIKE A MORON!' *g*) And following from that, I shall quote Spike: 'There are always consequences'. Our happy ending was LOVELY, but S6 will deal with the fallout. Ooooh yes.
2. S2 always struck me as the Doctor sauntering about the universe for a laugh, doing whatever he wanted and having a blast holding hands with Rose, very much like 'a whimsical child-god playing with his toys in a tiny, claustrophobic world where there's nothing he cannot do' (it's one of the reasons it's my least favourite). Of course then the universe smacked some sense back into him when it took Rose, and he never really recovered. Eleven, on the whole, has a far more realistic view of the world and his place within it, and the first few episodes of S5 do a good job of helping him realise that the universe does NOT revolve around him, kthnxbye. IMHO, of course. :)
Re: Part 2
Date: 2011-01-01 02:07 pm (UTC)S2 always struck me as the Doctor sauntering about the universe for a laugh, doing whatever he wanted and having a blast holding hands with Rose, very much like 'a whimsical child-god playing with his toys in a tiny, claustrophobic world where there's nothing he cannot do' (it's one of the reasons it's my least favourite).
Hm. Whimsical, yes, child-god, maybe, and quite fitting considering his recent regeneration, but 'tiny' and 'claustrophobic' are words that I absolutely don't associate with the world of RTD's DW. And there are enough episodes even before the finale that show that there are a lot of things he can't do. Love and Monsters, where he can save Ursula only very imperfectly, and couldn't save Elton's mother at all. School Reunion and The Girl in the Fireplace where he has to accept the laws of time like everyone else. The Impossible Planet/The Satan Pit, which shows that the universe is a bigger and more mysterious place than even the Time Lords thought it was...
Re: Part 2
Date: 2011-01-01 02:38 pm (UTC)Of course it would! I liked her too! :)
And there are enough episodes even before the finale that show that there are a lot of things he can't do.
Oh I'm not disputing that at all. It's just that if I *had* to choose a Doctor and a season, that would be the one I went for.
But I think I'll have to go back to what I said above - RTD's universe was wonderful, but it felt like a tragic place (whatever humanity does, they'll always end up as the Toclafane...), and one that seemed to have it in for poor Ten. Moffat's universe is just as wonderful, but doesn't seem to have it in for Eleven in the same way. His *enemies* band together to defeat him (and succeed!), but the universe itself doesn't seem all that interested. Hmm. Maybe I can see what you mean - in RTD's 'verse it was all personal, because RTD was fascinated with the concepts of Godhood etc (time itself fighting back in Waters of Mars!). Moffat isn't interested in any of that. I don't think it makes the universe smaller though, just less sentient. ;)
Re: Part 2
Date: 2011-01-01 02:48 pm (UTC)I think this is something we can agree on. :) There's a lot of death, on a very fundamental level, in RTD's stories, absolutely. And now I'm wondering if I'm morbidly obsessed with death, if that's what makes the difference. Hm.
Re: Part 2
Date: 2011-01-01 02:50 pm (UTC)Re: Part 2
Date: 2011-01-01 03:02 pm (UTC)Re: Part 2
Date: 2011-01-01 03:03 pm (UTC)Re: Part 2
Date: 2011-01-01 03:16 pm (UTC)Torchwood S2 actually was when I started downloading episodes and following fandom in real time, although sometimes I'm still not so sure I'm actually part of it...
Re: Part 2
Date: 2011-01-01 03:26 pm (UTC)The Educated Fangirl's Guide To The Spike Wars.
You Might Have Post-Traumatic Joss Syndrome...
This is why I've only ever hung out round the very edges of DW/TW fandom - Fans. Are. Crazy.
Re: Part 2
Date: 2011-01-01 03:40 pm (UTC)Oh dear. (Also, someone should totally write something like that for TW fandom... *evil grin*)
Re: Part 2
Date: 2011-01-01 06:14 pm (UTC)You might like my entry The Diamonds and the Dark.
Re: Part 2
Date: 2011-01-01 06:28 pm (UTC)I'm extremely hesitant to link this because tl;dr doesn't even begin to cover it, but in case you're interested, my thoughts about the death/life/being human theme in DW and TW are here (http://solitary-summer.livejournal.com/513051.html).
Re: Part 2
Date: 2011-01-01 07:05 pm (UTC)Re: Part 2
Date: 2011-01-01 08:59 pm (UTC)Re: Part 2
Date: 2011-01-01 06:09 pm (UTC)I don't see RTD's universe as sentient at all...the laws of time, the laws of physics, entropy - thats not sentience, that's just the way things ARE...
RTD's universe is NOT sentient. But RTD's universe IS entropic - like our universe. Everything has its time and everything dies, just like in our universe. But: life exists, and it's WONDERFUL. No, it won't last forever - nothing lasts forever - but impermanence doesn't diminish life. It makes it all the more precious.
Re: Part 2
Date: 2011-01-01 06:14 pm (UTC)I *was* being a little tongue-in-cheek. ;) But I do find Rusty's preoccupation with the themes of Godhood fascinating, given his atheism. (But that is a far bigger topic, and I shall leave it well alone right now.) However, Rusty's Doctor - or Ten at least - does fight all the rules, as that beautiful meta of Kaffyr's points out.
Re: Part 2
Date: 2011-01-01 06:32 pm (UTC)Of course I can't speak for RTD, but few atheists are born atheists.
Re: Part 2
Date: 2011-01-01 07:09 pm (UTC)Actually, that's another thing - Ten is known as 'The Lonely God' and it's something that crops up a lot, esp when the Master enters the picture. Eleven is 'a Madman with a Box', and River specifically describes him as 'a man', as opposed to a god.
I'm not really going anywhere with that, it's just rather striking. Oh! That reminds me. Have you seen Agnus Dei? It is one of the most gorgeous and rich vids I've ever seen.
I'm not saying that Elaven has less power, but it's quite simply not portrayed in the same manner. He meddles, but in the manner of a teacher, not a god.
Re: Part 2
Date: 2011-01-01 07:03 pm (UTC)At the end of The Writer's Tale he says that people
think that I'm turning the Doctor into God, when clearly I'm saying that God doesn't exist, that we mythologise real people, events or aspirations into deities, and pay the price for it.
(page 684)
Re: Part 2
Date: 2011-01-01 07:12 pm (UTC)(This is simplified to the point of silliness, I know. I think I'll have to leave it - I've had a post brewing about all this for quite some time...)
Re: Part 2
Date: 2011-01-02 09:33 pm (UTC)*Hugs you*