solitary_summer (![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png)
solitary_summer) wrote2010-01-13 12:54 pm
solitary_summer) wrote2010-01-13 12:54 pm
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I'm not all that comfortable posting this, because while I generally follow the big fandom ---!fail debates, most of the time I'm too scared to offend someone or make a fool of myself to speak up, but between ![[livejournal.com profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/external/lj-userinfo.gif)
aviv_b's (now locked) RTD-finds-out-about-homophobia story, and the recent debate about (straight) women writing m/m fiction I have this sort of theory why TW fandom blew up so spectacularly after CoE, and it has a lot to do with this slightly uneasy alliance between gay people and the straight part of slash fandom, since both want the same thing, more gay storylines, and there's strength in numbers, and numbers count when it comes to TV. On the other hand that common interest doesn't mean that gay people (fans as well as those involved in the creation, especially in the age of the internet and fandom becoming increasingly mainstream and public) aren't aware of the more problematic aspects of slash fandom (fetishisation/appropriation), or that straight fandom doesn't tend to forget that for gay people it's also very much a matter of identification and representation, and not just, and that's putting it as politely and generally as possible, of fanish squee. (Cf. the 'But It's not about gay men, it's about female sexuality' argument.)
And for the straight side it all worked rather well ('Yay! Canon slash!'), and I'd hazard a guess that even after Ianto's death the greater part of TW fandom would probably have got over it after a while, if RTD hadn't spoken up about what he thought was problematic about—straight, beecause 'people picking up gay rights as an issue' clearly doesn't refer to gay fans—fandom, and suddenly it wasn't one happy family any longer.
So, yes, the 'hysterical women' comment was sexist and misogynist, everyone can agree on that, but after six months fandom can maybe start to look beyond that, and realise this was also coming from somewhere, namely a gay writer thinking he wasn't just dealing with straight women fetishising homosexuality and making judgements about what gay relationships were supposed to be like, but straight women now explaining homophobia to him. Now clearly the situation was more complex than that, clearly there were gay people as well as straight people who disliked CoE for a wide variety of reasons, but I think this was the main impression that came across, and I doubt anyone involved in TW fandom can honestly say that it was wholly unfounded in reality.
And considering that he stated this very explicitly more than once (here and here and probably elsewhere, too, but I wasn't following media that religiously and only picked up what was generally linked in fandom) I find it a bit worrying how this got swept aside almost unanimously by the straight part of fandom. Admittedly emotions were running high all round, and no one was thinking very clearly at the time, but after half a year maybe it's time to acknowledge that among other things there was also a lot of hurt privilege and entitlement in the post-CoE fallout. Because when straight people are gleefully writing RPF subjecting RTD to homophobia they honestly believe he doesn't know about, and are convinced they're doing it in the name of gay rights and karma I think this is a problem that isn't just limited to one writer, but symptomatic of the wider state of TW fandom.
*breathes* Okay. Now everyone tell me how hard I've failed.
[Obligatory disclaimer: I don't consider myself straight, but I'm also too not-much-of-anything-sexual to feel justified claiming any kind of queer label.
Obligatory disclaimer the second, for those who aren't on my friendslist and don't know me. Yes, I cried. Yes, I cared. Click the tag.]
ETA: I'll be at my sister's for the afternoon, so if I'm not replying to comments it's not that I'm ignoring anyone.
ETA2: Addendum, sort of.
More ETA, since my brain is slow and some things only untangled themselves in my head replying to the comments. If I wrote that post now, I'd phrase it a bit differently, because even while I thought I was being clear, different issues did in fact get jumbled together. The 'hysterical women' comment— and while we're at it, I was getting curious and looked for the exact source, and now I'm left wondering, was this ever said more publicly than (possibly off the record?) to the AfterElton writer who put it into his editor's note without giving the context or even a full quote? In any case, that comment is one thing, and I'm not going to tell anyone they can't be offended by its sexism, even if personally I can't bring myself to be very outraged, given the context, situation and the fact that we're all human and fuck up occasionally.
OTOH, the two interviews I've linked where he is clearly pissed off about straight people lecturing a gay man about gay rights and homophobia—that's a separate issue and a legitimate concern about what was happening in TW fandom, and something I don't think straight fans should immediately react to with outrage and discard as nothing but hurt vanity. It's an issue that deserves consideration, whether or not someone is willing to forgive killing Ianto or the 'nine hysterical women'.
The one is about male privilege and prejudice, the other very much about straight privilege, as is using the sexism as an excuse to ignore the anger, lumping it all together; and they don't cancel each other out. This is essentially what I should have made clearer from the start. And I'll really shut up now; but on some level I keep naively hoping that attempting to untangle this whole mess might also eventually help a little bit towards making TW fandom a less toxic place again. I know, I know. *sigh*
aviv_b's (now locked) RTD-finds-out-about-homophobia story, and the recent debate about (straight) women writing m/m fiction I have this sort of theory why TW fandom blew up so spectacularly after CoE, and it has a lot to do with this slightly uneasy alliance between gay people and the straight part of slash fandom, since both want the same thing, more gay storylines, and there's strength in numbers, and numbers count when it comes to TV. On the other hand that common interest doesn't mean that gay people (fans as well as those involved in the creation, especially in the age of the internet and fandom becoming increasingly mainstream and public) aren't aware of the more problematic aspects of slash fandom (fetishisation/appropriation), or that straight fandom doesn't tend to forget that for gay people it's also very much a matter of identification and representation, and not just, and that's putting it as politely and generally as possible, of fanish squee. (Cf. the 'But It's not about gay men, it's about female sexuality' argument.)And for the straight side it all worked rather well ('Yay! Canon slash!'), and I'd hazard a guess that even after Ianto's death the greater part of TW fandom would probably have got over it after a while, if RTD hadn't spoken up about what he thought was problematic about—straight, beecause 'people picking up gay rights as an issue' clearly doesn't refer to gay fans—fandom, and suddenly it wasn't one happy family any longer.
So, yes, the 'hysterical women' comment was sexist and misogynist, everyone can agree on that, but after six months fandom can maybe start to look beyond that, and realise this was also coming from somewhere, namely a gay writer thinking he wasn't just dealing with straight women fetishising homosexuality and making judgements about what gay relationships were supposed to be like, but straight women now explaining homophobia to him. Now clearly the situation was more complex than that, clearly there were gay people as well as straight people who disliked CoE for a wide variety of reasons, but I think this was the main impression that came across, and I doubt anyone involved in TW fandom can honestly say that it was wholly unfounded in reality.
And considering that he stated this very explicitly more than once (here and here and probably elsewhere, too, but I wasn't following media that religiously and only picked up what was generally linked in fandom) I find it a bit worrying how this got swept aside almost unanimously by the straight part of fandom. Admittedly emotions were running high all round, and no one was thinking very clearly at the time, but after half a year maybe it's time to acknowledge that among other things there was also a lot of hurt privilege and entitlement in the post-CoE fallout. Because when straight people are gleefully writing RPF subjecting RTD to homophobia they honestly believe he doesn't know about, and are convinced they're doing it in the name of gay rights and karma I think this is a problem that isn't just limited to one writer, but symptomatic of the wider state of TW fandom.
*breathes* Okay. Now everyone tell me how hard I've failed.
[Obligatory disclaimer: I don't consider myself straight, but I'm also too not-much-of-anything-sexual to feel justified claiming any kind of queer label.
Obligatory disclaimer the second, for those who aren't on my friendslist and don't know me. Yes, I cried. Yes, I cared. Click the tag.]
ETA2: Addendum, sort of.
More ETA, since my brain is slow and some things only untangled themselves in my head replying to the comments. If I wrote that post now, I'd phrase it a bit differently, because even while I thought I was being clear, different issues did in fact get jumbled together. The 'hysterical women' comment— and while we're at it, I was getting curious and looked for the exact source, and now I'm left wondering, was this ever said more publicly than (possibly off the record?) to the AfterElton writer who put it into his editor's note without giving the context or even a full quote? In any case, that comment is one thing, and I'm not going to tell anyone they can't be offended by its sexism, even if personally I can't bring myself to be very outraged, given the context, situation and the fact that we're all human and fuck up occasionally.
OTOH, the two interviews I've linked where he is clearly pissed off about straight people lecturing a gay man about gay rights and homophobia—that's a separate issue and a legitimate concern about what was happening in TW fandom, and something I don't think straight fans should immediately react to with outrage and discard as nothing but hurt vanity. It's an issue that deserves consideration, whether or not someone is willing to forgive killing Ianto or the 'nine hysterical women'.
The one is about male privilege and prejudice, the other very much about straight privilege, as is using the sexism as an excuse to ignore the anger, lumping it all together; and they don't cancel each other out. This is essentially what I should have made clearer from the start. And I'll really shut up now; but on some level I keep naively hoping that attempting to untangle this whole mess might also eventually help a little bit towards making TW fandom a less toxic place again. I know, I know. *sigh*
no subject
I think there is, in fact, a VERY vocal group who are doing just what you state, but I think it's unfair to say the same is "symptomatic of the wider state of TW fandom."
But in that case, shouldn't the rest of TW fandom speak up at least occasionally and readjust the perception? Although OTOH ironically enough RTD has pretty much always said these fans were a minority and that a couple of hundred comments on the internet didn't count in the greater scheme of things. Upon which a lot of people took very personal offence and set out to prove that no, they really weren't a minority. So are they now? Aren't they?
I know this isn't the only issue, but since you brought it up—as the interviewer says, the problem of never seeing them as a couple was an issue more of S1 and S2 than CoE, so it's hardly a complaint or concern about CoE as such. As I've said in a comment above, IMO the complete lack of a real Jack/Ianto arc in the second half of S2 as opposed to the first half is due to switching the death/resurrection storyline from Ianto to Owen at the very last minute. Considering all the issues that needed addressing with Jack's immortality maybe they were hoping to develop their relationship in a third season? In the end none of us knows what went into these decisions, what compromises had to be made, and maybe creating a SF show with a bisexual male protagonist in a gay relationship wasn't all that unproblematic. There's this anecdote involving pizza feeding and groping that GDL told at some convention, about how JB wanted to turn it into more of a visible relationship in S2, and GDL got shit from the director for going along with it, so I'm actually somewhat curious about what went on behind the scenes there. Maybe we'll hear more about it in a couple of decades when it's all ancient history...
The thing is... In some ways I'm still very unused to this interaction between fans and TPTB, and maybe that's the reason I just can't take all this very personally. I occasionally do find it interesting to hear about the process of writing and creation, but anything beyond that doesn't really touch me personally. I think this illusion of closeness is a bit problematic, because it's just that, an illusion. They don't know me, my thoughts and feelings, at all, and I only see a slice of public persona.
no subject
Others in fandom have been speaking out against that corner - at least since that bizarre (and often offensive) 400 page internet document surfaced, and, less vocally, before. (I'm afraid I'm not terribly active in fandom these days, I'm sure I've missed plenty.) And I'm not saying you should stop, but your generalization is unfair.
~
Yes, I'm sure the real reasons for a lot of it (meaning: the more often than not hidden nature of the Jack/Ianto relationship) would be an unpleasant surprise, based on that tidbit
~
It's not so much the interaction between fans and TPTB that made me comment, it's more the way fans sometimes treat other fans - and a lot of that is just passed down from TPTB (which is why I pointed out that interview). For every fan that has a problem with CoE, there is likely to be a unique bent to what s/he didn't like about it and a unique reason for that dislike. Painting 'everyone on the left' with the same brush just obscures real problems (whatever they happen to be). It's a tool to silence people.
That said... I think it's weird how some people in fandom DO attempt to 'become friends' with TPTB and/or The Talent, or, at the other extreme, think that a problem with The Art must equate a problem with The Artist (and take it as if a once-friend had betrayed them).
But, I love the meta that goes on in fandom. And I would usually lurk, but little things like that (tiny bit at the end of your meta) will bring me out.
no subject
Do I want to?
no subject
Download link is here (http://www.megaupload.com/?d=KG2N35V4) if you're interested.
no subject
You'll regret it. Or ROTFL. Or both.
no subject
You can't know that, but I generally do have the tendency to see every possible side of every problem, which 99.5 percent of the time results in me never posting about anything that isn't either personal or fanish, because there's OTOH and OTOH and on the third, fourth and fifth hand, until I've argued myself out of my own opinions, so I do realise you have a point about generalising. I never meant to summarily condemn the whole of TW fandom.
OTOH (he!), judging from what I personally saw after CoE, I still believe that at least on some level this was happening and is a problem worth addressing. The interviews I linked... I vaguely (since she wasn't on my frinedslist at the time and I only read it via friendsfriends) remember a post by
It's not so much the interaction between fans and TPTB that made me comment, it's more the way fans sometimes treat other fans - and a lot of that is just passed down from TPTB (which is why I pointed out that interview).
Be fair, though. Again, this is only talking about my corner of fandom and my experience, but with CoE it hardly were those who disliked it who were silenced. There was so much hurt and anger everywhere, even talking about CoE in one's own journal was like navigating a minefield. I felt guilty even saying I liked it. I liked how Jack/Ianto was written in CoE, and all I was reading was how wrong, cheap, OOC and all kinds of dirty their relationship and Ianto's death was. It took me six months to feel certain enough about myself to post this, and even so I was very aware that most likely at least in a couple of cases it would mean severing ties with people I liked and who'd been on my friendslist for years. I do regret this, but writing this I also realised that it's a huge relief being at least able to talk about this now.
no subject
It doesn't bother me to hear that others liked CoE, so long as they're not telling me that I have to, to stay in fandom. And it's great that your take on their relationship makes it work for you, but I had much higher hopes for the Ianto character. So, for me, it was all kinds of wrong and cheap and somewhat out-of-step characterization. I blame some of that on the reasons you've mentioned elsewhere (last minute changes in the plot, on set changes by directors/actors, the lack of a set plan for the series from the start), but mostly on the choice to reduce Ianto to 'the love interest plot device to break Jack,' when I wanted so much more for him. (And that last bit, separate from anything that I didn't like about CoE, is what keeps me hanging on to fandom - where characters can live beyond their non-existent lives.)
So, it was a surprise to me when the Jack/Alonso scene in EoT2 made me feel a little better.
Keep talking. :)
no subject
I never did that, and that certainly wasn't my intention when I wrote this post.
It occurs to me that I maybe should qualify my last comment - no one was deliberately silencing me. It was the general hurt and anger in my corner of TW fandom and my own bundle of issues about saying something that would possibly hurt people or result in them disliking me that made speaking up so hard for me.